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we go over the fiscal cliff rates reset under bill clinton and you're negotiating a tax cut not a tax increase. other thing the way weight of public opinion since that level has moved strongly against republicans. look who the public says they're going to blame if we go over the cliff, it's republicans because they see them as having forced the issue last time around, been willing to do this this time around. one reason boehner is grumbly and nervous because he doesn't have any leverage. >> i want to point this out. this is interesting in terms of the smoke and mirrors how this will play out for the republicans. in the "wall street journal" they write obama's flexible on highest tax rates. white house's flexibility, described by bowls, confirmed by the administration officials, could envision tax rates -- tax rate increase from the current level but was less than clinton era levels. if the republicans can say, we cut taxes from where they were under clinton it gives them cover though rates may go up. a weird, if there is an act of kabuki theater that would be it, right. >> i see a par
we go over the fiscal cliff rates reset under bill clinton and you're negotiating a tax cut not a tax increase. other thing the way weight of public opinion since that level has moved strongly against republicans. look who the public says they're going to blame if we go over the cliff, it's republicans because they see them as having forced the issue last time around, been willing to do this this time around. one reason boehner is grumbly and nervous because he doesn't have any leverage....
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Dec 3, 2012
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to go off the fiscal cliff? >> if republicans are not willing to let rates go back up, and we think they should go back to the clinton levels, a time when the economy was doing exceptionally well, then there will not be an agreement. >> let's go to the other side. republican house speaker john boehner also digging in, admitting that talks are going nowhere. speaker boehner also describing the moment when geithner first showed him the president's opening offer. >> i was flabbergasted. i looked at him, i said, "you can't be serious." i've just never seen anything like it. you know, we've got seven weeks between election day and the end of the year. and three of those weeks have been wasted with this nonsense. right now i would say we're nowhere, period. we're nowhere. we've put a serious offer on the table by putting revenues up there to try to get this question resolved. but the white house has responded with virtually nothing. they've actually asked for more revenue than they've been asking for the whole entire
to go off the fiscal cliff? >> if republicans are not willing to let rates go back up, and we think they should go back to the clinton levels, a time when the economy was doing exceptionally well, then there will not be an agreement. >> let's go to the other side. republican house speaker john boehner also digging in, admitting that talks are going nowhere. speaker boehner also describing the moment when geithner first showed him the president's opening offer. >> i was...
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Nov 29, 2012
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cliff, you called serious business, extending the lower tax rates -- [ inaudible question ] >> i'm going to do everything i can to avoid putting the american economy, the american people through the fiasco of going over the fiscal cliff. >> which is worse for the economy? [ inaudible question ] could you include a debt limit that is in the overall package? >> as i told the president a couple weeks ago, there's a lot of things i've wanted in my life, but almost all of them had a price tag attached to them. and if we're going to talk about the debt limit in this, then we're -- there's going to be some price tag associated with it. >> last question. >> are you standing by your dollar for dollar -- the increase in the debt limit for cuts? >> are i continue to believe that any increase in the debt limit has to be accompanied by spending reductions that meet or exceed it. >> thank you, mr. speaker. >> speaker boehner speaking to the press outside of the offices on capitol hill. not really yielding any information, though. the intransigence it seems on both sides continues. but it definitely co
cliff, you called serious business, extending the lower tax rates -- [ inaudible question ] >> i'm going to do everything i can to avoid putting the american economy, the american people through the fiasco of going over the fiscal cliff. >> which is worse for the economy? [ inaudible question ] could you include a debt limit that is in the overall package? >> as i told the president a couple weeks ago, there's a lot of things i've wanted in my life, but almost all of them had...
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turn to the fiscal cliff, i know you don't want to get clinical or partisan, or even talk about this ridiculous phrase "fiscal cliff," just in your dealings with the financial issues for the last 30 or 40 years, what is your view about taxation, generally. doesn't america suffer when taxes are slightly higher in terms of economic prosperity? or is that just a bit of a myth? >> well, i think there are a lot of theories running around out there. and i have the formal education, and finance degree so i studied economics like a lot of us did. i was formally taught, the proper way is that way. that seems to be the direction of the obama administration, the idea to raise taxes. and the government control the reinvestment interest the economy. really, there is not much evidence that that has worked. it didn't work under obama or bush, even an argument it didn't work under fdr, which is where it came from. that probably world war ii bailed us out of the economic slump, probably called the great depression, rather than that. i am a sophisticated guy, i don't have a lot of sophisticated looks
turn to the fiscal cliff, i know you don't want to get clinical or partisan, or even talk about this ridiculous phrase "fiscal cliff," just in your dealings with the financial issues for the last 30 or 40 years, what is your view about taxation, generally. doesn't america suffer when taxes are slightly higher in terms of economic prosperity? or is that just a bit of a myth? >> well, i think there are a lot of theories running around out there. and i have the formal education,...
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Dec 5, 2012
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president obama says no deal on the fiscal cliff. >> how does raising tax rates on the rich help the poor. that is what i don't get. true free market capitalism helps everybody. a rising tide lifts all boats. i'm laugrry kudlow we will be right back. two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf. bp has paid over twenty-three billion dollars to help those affected and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open, and many areas are reporting their best tourism seasons in years. and bp's also committed to america. we support nearly 250,000 jobs and invest more here than anywhere else. we're working to fuel america for generations to come. our commitment has never been stronger. >> whow does taxing the rich hep the poor rise above poverty and get a job? let's talk to larry elder. he is the author of the great book, "dear father dear son". welcome back. how does taxing successful wealthy people help the poor get out of poverty. well for people who think like i think it doesn't make any sense. but understand something, that is not what this is all about. t
president obama says no deal on the fiscal cliff. >> how does raising tax rates on the rich help the poor. that is what i don't get. true free market capitalism helps everybody. a rising tide lifts all boats. i'm laugrry kudlow we will be right back. two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf. bp has paid over twenty-three billion dollars to help those affected and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open, and many areas are reporting their best...
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Dec 6, 2012
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in a fiscal cliff free fall, tax rates on capital gains could rise to 24%. those dividends could increase to a whopping 44%. here now is former reagan economic adviser art laugher. how can you have capitalism without capital and why is there a war on capital, that includes cap gains, that includes dividends which will triple. it also includes the estate tax. why is there a war on capital? >> i have no idea, larry. i think it's just pure politics. but it's sort of lovely the words and looking them up. i understand that the french don't have a word for entrepreneur or laissez faire. [ laughter ] >> because they never use it. >> they never use it. economics is all about incentives. if you tax people who work, you pay people who don't work, don't be surprised if you find a lot of people not working. it's the rich issue here, which is just fascinating to me. if you tax rich people and give the money to poor people, you're going to get lots and lots of poor people and very few rich people. just look at what happened in britain two years ago when gordon brown raise
in a fiscal cliff free fall, tax rates on capital gains could rise to 24%. those dividends could increase to a whopping 44%. here now is former reagan economic adviser art laugher. how can you have capitalism without capital and why is there a war on capital, that includes cap gains, that includes dividends which will triple. it also includes the estate tax. why is there a war on capital? >> i have no idea, larry. i think it's just pure politics. but it's sort of lovely the words and...
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and you know, there are some taxes that would go up if we two off the fiscal cliff. you're talking about a family that makes about $50,000 having a tax increase of $4,000. melissa: congresswoman, this drives me crazy. when we look at all the numbers we immediately start talking about taxes. it seems like we're looking for revenue under every single rock. that's fine. even if we raised taxes that are proposed by the white house, it will raise $82 billion. it is one half of 1% of the problem. we have a $16.3 trillion debt. all of this talk about raising taxes doesn't get us even close to solving the problem. it doesn't even start the conversation. it is not a drop in the bucket. we've got to reform our spending or grow the economy. but just raising taxes isn't going to do it. >> well, i agree with you 100%. that's why the president as well as the democrats have called for a balanced approach. so of course we can't raise enough taxes to completely deal with the deficit. and you do have to do reforms. you need to reform the tax system. you certainly need to make addition
and you know, there are some taxes that would go up if we two off the fiscal cliff. you're talking about a family that makes about $50,000 having a tax increase of $4,000. melissa: congresswoman, this drives me crazy. when we look at all the numbers we immediately start talking about taxes. it seems like we're looking for revenue under every single rock. that's fine. even if we raised taxes that are proposed by the white house, it will raise $82 billion. it is one half of 1% of the problem. we...
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however, once we sail off the fiscal cliff, if they raise the income tax rates, some of these guys could wind up paying 43.4% on their income. so what are you going to do? pay 15% now or perhaps 43.4% later? costco is saying let's go ahead, let's get this out now and we can all be richer. >> gretchen: but why the story is so important is because this particular ceo spoke at the democratic national convention in support of the president and raising taxes. so some people might say this is hypocrisy in the sense that now he would do this dividend sale and cash in before he has to pay this higher tax rate. some people would say that that is hypocritical. >> brian: they've been downgraded by fitch as well as standards and poor is for doing this. >> gretchen: now the rest of your headlines. adult smuggler rams his boat into a federal boat off the coast of california near santa cruz island in the middle of the night. the coast guard intercepted two boats believed to be carrying marijuana. that's when the driver of one of the boats actually drove over the top of the coast guard boat, hitting two
however, once we sail off the fiscal cliff, if they raise the income tax rates, some of these guys could wind up paying 43.4% on their income. so what are you going to do? pay 15% now or perhaps 43.4% later? costco is saying let's go ahead, let's get this out now and we can all be richer. >> gretchen: but why the story is so important is because this particular ceo spoke at the democratic national convention in support of the president and raising taxes. so some people might say this is...
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we expect add big impact from the fiscal cliff and the labor department said no, we did not but labor participation rate, look at this ugly chart the it is declining. we have the rate drop again in large part because the labor force fell by 350,000. we are watching that carefully because you want to see people work. and try to get jobs. it is critical. >>shepard: what impact did super storm sandy? >>gerri: not so much. however, there were a million people that were working part time rather than full time and that is ascribed to hurricane sandy. normally you do not expect that. >>shepard: the matters went, so what. >>gerri: well, they saw that the 350,000 number and they thought they didn't like that and the market pulled back a little. we have had back-and-forth situation on that, starting off 74 up on the dow and now we are down. >>shepard: better than negative. >>gerri: better than negative. >>shepard: millions of american jobs potentially on the line if lawmakers do not get their act together. house of representatives speaker boehner says there is in progress in talks to avoid the
we expect add big impact from the fiscal cliff and the labor department said no, we did not but labor participation rate, look at this ugly chart the it is declining. we have the rate drop again in large part because the labor force fell by 350,000. we are watching that carefully because you want to see people work. and try to get jobs. it is critical. >>shepard: what impact did super storm sandy? >>gerri: not so much. however, there were a million people that were working part time...
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cliff unless both sides agree to raise rates on the wealthiest. that means raise tax rates for top earners. the reason that this is news is because there's been discussion publicly that perhaps they could find a rev new agreement where it would just involve capping deductions or maybe they could get to revenue just through tax reform, and with this piece of detail from that phone call yesterday, it would seem that the democrats, the president personally, is drawing a line saying those other ways are not enough. his campaign message that the top earners have to pay more, he is sticking to that line many these negotiations. >> jess, do we know how the republicans responded to this red line? >> well, speaker boehner was frustrated, wrovl, and came out with -- in his press conference today basically accusing the president of not leading on the issue. both sides are calling for the white house to come forward with spending cuts first, tell us where you are going to cut spending, before we, the republicans, will say whether we'll go along with you on ta
cliff unless both sides agree to raise rates on the wealthiest. that means raise tax rates for top earners. the reason that this is news is because there's been discussion publicly that perhaps they could find a rev new agreement where it would just involve capping deductions or maybe they could get to revenue just through tax reform, and with this piece of detail from that phone call yesterday, it would seem that the democrats, the president personally, is drawing a line saying those other...
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with the fiscal cliff and tax rates rising, in november public companies borrowed reported amounts in the bond market in part to help finance shareholder payouts. so, how much in bonds was sold last month? find out next. [ male announcer ] this is joe woods' first day of work. and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. it's just common sense. if we want to improve our schools... ... what should we invest in? maybe new buildings? what about updated equipment? they can help, but recent research shows... ... nothing transforms schools like investing in advanced teacher education. let's build a strong foundation. let's invest in our teachers so they can inspire our students. let'
with the fiscal cliff and tax rates rising, in november public companies borrowed reported amounts in the bond market in part to help finance shareholder payouts. so, how much in bonds was sold last month? find out next. [ male announcer ] this is joe woods' first day of work. and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game...
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. >> secretary geithner says he cannot promise we will not go off the fiscal cliff. speaker boehner says he is going to do everything we can to avoid the cliff. but acknowledged there is a chance he canal stop it. jamie? >> eric: peter doocy comprehensive report. >> jamie: thank you. >> eric: president obama hit the road on friday to try to sell his plan to the american people. but is that his -- is that what needed to make a deal? bring in max schlapp, political director under president bush. former democratic congressman from texas, martin frost. matt and martin, welcome sunday morning. good to see you. matt, let me start with you. what do they need, because they are not there now, to get to the point they need to make a deal? >> they have time to pull a deal together. the real concern here is that president obama is drawing lines in the sand. some of the lines might not be able to be crossed by the republicans. that gets people increasingly worried that an overall deal can't be reached. hard to imagine in the short-term before cliff by the end of the year, they ca
. >> secretary geithner says he cannot promise we will not go off the fiscal cliff. speaker boehner says he is going to do everything we can to avoid the cliff. but acknowledged there is a chance he canal stop it. jamie? >> eric: peter doocy comprehensive report. >> jamie: thank you. >> eric: president obama hit the road on friday to try to sell his plan to the american people. but is that his -- is that what needed to make a deal? bring in max schlapp, political...
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Nov 30, 2012
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this conversation assumes the president doesn't want to go over the fiscal cliff. i disagree. i think he does. i think he wants all the tax rates to go up. you can argue the politics of this. he needs revenue to come in. he wants more spending, not less. wants 1.2 trillion dollars in defense cuts because he wants to cut the military and wants an unlimited credit card in terms being allowed unilaterally to raise the debt limit. he wants all of these things and he knows he will not get blamed for it. the republicans will get blamed for it no matter what happens. the gop will get blamed for it because the mia is protective the president. he has nothing to lose, jon. he is willing to go over the cliff. >> i think what he is say take us over the cliff and vote with the democrats and dare republicans not vote it for 90% of the americans wouldn't be affected by top two tax rates. politician long last realistic how to negotiate in washington he finally understands what you need to do is come and say this is my position. republicans give us your position and we'll negotiate that way as
this conversation assumes the president doesn't want to go over the fiscal cliff. i disagree. i think he does. i think he wants all the tax rates to go up. you can argue the politics of this. he needs revenue to come in. he wants more spending, not less. wants 1.2 trillion dollars in defense cuts because he wants to cut the military and wants an unlimited credit card in terms being allowed unilaterally to raise the debt limit. he wants all of these things and he knows he will not get blamed for...
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with no agreement, going over the fiscal cliff would be painful. the automatic tax increases break down like this: households making $20,000 to $4,000 would see an increase in $1,200 a year. incomes of $40,000 to $64,000 would see taxes rise $2,000 and in the $64,000 to $108,000 bracket taxes go up $3,500 a year. mr. obama and the republican speaker of the house talked this over today and here's major garrett at the white house. major? >> reporter: scott, there there is a code of silence the white house and speaker boehner's try to apply to these phone conversations, releasing as few details as possible to protect the underlying negotiations. nevertheless, cbs news has learned the following: the speaker and the president spoke before treasury secretary tkpwaoeugter in'sers.e.c.geithner's comments about going over the cliff, the conversation was described as brief, meaning shorter than the 28-minute conversation speaker boehner and the president had last week. also those familiar with the conversation tell me -- or do not used a skwrebgive thes like
with no agreement, going over the fiscal cliff would be painful. the automatic tax increases break down like this: households making $20,000 to $4,000 would see an increase in $1,200 a year. incomes of $40,000 to $64,000 would see taxes rise $2,000 and in the $64,000 to $108,000 bracket taxes go up $3,500 a year. mr. obama and the republican speaker of the house talked this over today and here's major garrett at the white house. major? >> reporter: scott, there there is a code of silence...
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Dec 4, 2012
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i think that fiscal cliff is just a big red herring. your district has the shortest life span in the country for women. the infant mortalithighest infay rate in the country. we follow mississippi. i think that is where you are leading the country. if the people of the united states want to see where you and the republican party -- come and look at your district. guest: i would be delighted to have people come and look at my district and then it is 14,000 farms and ranches with two military installations. 5 colleges and universities. 11 indian tribes. the best college football team in america. it is a very special place. i would argue with your statistics. i just won reelection with 68% of the vote. having said all that, the idea that the paul ryan budget is about getting rid of social programs is ntot so. it is about saving them. these programs are going bankrupt. all are going to have to be reformed. if the president gets every tax increase he is asking for, let's just assume that he did, it would not come close to solving the budgetar
i think that fiscal cliff is just a big red herring. your district has the shortest life span in the country for women. the infant mortalithighest infay rate in the country. we follow mississippi. i think that is where you are leading the country. if the people of the united states want to see where you and the republican party -- come and look at your district. guest: i would be delighted to have people come and look at my district and then it is 14,000 farms and ranches with two military...
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before, they were talking about increasing rates. that was bad enough and now they saves increase rates and get rid of deductions. a huge increase in demand on tax rises. does that concern you? >> absolutely. this is a proposal was brought to the table and on the republican side kind of laughed at and not take it seriously at all. some concern for the market because we are no closer than we were two week ago to any kind of agreement at all and if history has taught us anything with washington d.c. they don't solve anything until it comes to the last minute and all that uncertainty creates a lot of volatility in the market and we're seeing that more and more and will continue to see that for the next 30 days. liz: you to in this out and listen with one ear because you have been long-term bullish. how do you proceed when there is this echo chamber out of washington d.c. about the fiscal cliff? >> what you need to realize is regardless of where they end up, they have reduced standing and high taxes. you get a lot of noise. what i am see
before, they were talking about increasing rates. that was bad enough and now they saves increase rates and get rid of deductions. a huge increase in demand on tax rises. does that concern you? >> absolutely. this is a proposal was brought to the table and on the republican side kind of laughed at and not take it seriously at all. some concern for the market because we are no closer than we were two week ago to any kind of agreement at all and if history has taught us anything with...
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we are going over the fiscal cliff, that's my take. the administration is not budging. the only way they will even come to the table to negotiate is with the top earners paying higher tax rates, not just more in taxes, higher tax rates. but for some reason it must be higher rates, period. that's it. end of story. not because it is going to move the needle and fix our out of control debt, because it won't, not because it will put america on a fiscal sustainable path, because it won't. that is where the president has drawn his line in the sand. meanwhile, the president is now proposing a form of kicking the can down the road. raising taxes now with a promise to deal with entitlement reform and tax reform next year or beyond. that's the real worrisome proposal. here we are at the center of probably the most important fiscal conversation this country has had in decades. no one thinks we can continue on this spending path we are on without a day of reckoning coming sooner or later. why would we not seize the
we are going over the fiscal cliff, that's my take. the administration is not budging. the only way they will even come to the table to negotiate is with the top earners paying higher tax rates, not just more in taxes, higher tax rates. but for some reason it must be higher rates, period. that's it. end of story. not because it is going to move the needle and fix our out of control debt, because it won't, not because it will put america on a fiscal sustainable path, because it won't. that is...
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. >> if republicans do not agree to that, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff in. >> absolutely. there's no prospect to an agreement that doesn't involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest. it's only 2%. >> i want to bring in "usa today" bureau chief and welcome to both of you. where are we in these negotiations, susan? >> i think the most encouraging thing was they agreed to the to characterize the phone call. the last time around the characterization of the phone call became a controversy in itself. i think it's pretty clear that the white house and republicans think the white house hand on this is strengthening. we see the polls that you mention, pew polls this week say americans trust the president more, assume if a deal is not reached -- trust the white house more, think if a deal isn't reached it, will be the fault of republicans and it is in fact easier for democrats to go over the fiscal cliff than it is for republicans because then all those tax cuts from the republicans are swept away. but it's too early. it's only december 6. we've
. >> if republicans do not agree to that, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff in. >> absolutely. there's no prospect to an agreement that doesn't involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest. it's only 2%. >> i want to bring in "usa today" bureau chief and welcome to both of you. where are we in these negotiations, susan? >> i think the most encouraging thing was they agreed to the to characterize the phone call. the last...
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cliff expire, go down the fiscal cliff for tax rates, and adjust the taxes for the 98% through the rebate process. and this could be available for anyone, any president. let the bush tax rates apply as a ceiling, and then apply the rebate process to control the 98%. host: why do you propose that? what is the advantage in your view? caller: because the executive branch, the president, whoever it is, would have the ability to adjust the tax effectively for anyone who falls below the clintons' ceiling, and they could do this anytime. there would not have to go back to congress. -- they would not have to go back to congress. guest: it is true that technically the administration can do some things without even the congress's approval, but it would not be a lasting solution. let's say you could freeze the amount of withholding that you pay three paycheck at the level it was this year, for the 98%, and increase withholdings for everyone else as the law would dictate if you read over the cliff. -- went over the cliff. but the 98%, if they did not actually pass a law to extend the tax cuts for tha
cliff expire, go down the fiscal cliff for tax rates, and adjust the taxes for the 98% through the rebate process. and this could be available for anyone, any president. let the bush tax rates apply as a ceiling, and then apply the rebate process to control the 98%. host: why do you propose that? what is the advantage in your view? caller: because the executive branch, the president, whoever it is, would have the ability to adjust the tax effectively for anyone who falls below the clintons'...
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let's hope we don't go over that fiscal cliff. >> fingers crossed they will reach a compromise. i don't think there's anyone out there that wants to see us go over that fiscal cliff. >> that would be bad. but the clock is ticking. only a few weeks left. >>> the biggest problem between the united states and mexico and how to solve it. i'll speak with mexico's new president. my exclusive interview is just ahead. this line is a convenienc. how you doing today? i'm good thanks. how are you? i'm good. [ gordon ] but for others, it's all they can afford. every day nearly nine million older americans don't have enough to eat. anything else? no, not today. join me, aarp, and aarp foundation in the drive to end hunger by visiting drivetoendhunger.org. i tell them dentures are very different to real teeth. they're about 10 times softer and may have surface pores where bacteria can grow and multiply. polident is specifically designed to clean dentures daily. its unique micro-clean formula kills 99.9% of odor causing bacteria and helps dissolve stains, cleaning in a better way than brushing
let's hope we don't go over that fiscal cliff. >> fingers crossed they will reach a compromise. i don't think there's anyone out there that wants to see us go over that fiscal cliff. >> that would be bad. but the clock is ticking. only a few weeks left. >>> the biggest problem between the united states and mexico and how to solve it. i'll speak with mexico's new president. my exclusive interview is just ahead. this line is a convenienc. how you doing today? i'm good thanks....
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there is the fiscal cliff to consider. >>> now let's turn to japan. the jobless rate in october remained flat compared to the previous month. the internal affairs ministry said unemployment stayed at 4 4.2%. officials at the labor ministry say the ratio of job vacancies to seekers declined. it says 80 positions were open for every 100 job seekers. the industrial output posted an increase in october for the first time in four months. the index stood at 88.1 against a reference value of 1205. this was due to increases in the electronic parts and devices industry as well add the fabricated metal sector. now let's get a check on markets. japanese prices are trading in a modest range. the nikkei is at 9,427. investors are placing buy orders after the dow jones industrial average recovered to the 13,000 level. there's some profit taking here in tokyo following the recent events. let's take a look at the currency markets. the dollar is trading in a narrow range this friday morning. market sources say traders are refraining from aggressive moves as they wait
there is the fiscal cliff to consider. >>> now let's turn to japan. the jobless rate in october remained flat compared to the previous month. the internal affairs ministry said unemployment stayed at 4 4.2%. officials at the labor ministry say the ratio of job vacancies to seekers declined. it says 80 positions were open for every 100 job seekers. the industrial output posted an increase in october for the first time in four months. the index stood at 88.1 against a reference value of...
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you guys are willing to go off the fiscal cliff? >> it republicans are not willing to let rates go back up, and we think they should go back to the clinton levels, a the a time when the american economy was doing exceptionally well, then there will not be an agreement. >> while geithner was drawing a line in the sand, house speaker john boehner was busy trying to lift his jaw off the flar after geithner presented the president's debt reduction plans to him last week. >> i was just flabbergasted. i looked at him and said you can't be serious. i have just never seen anything like it. >> yes, indeed, it seems that republicans are not quite sure what to make of the president taking a harder line across the bargaining table. >> you know, the president's idea of a negotiation is roll over and do what i ask. >> i think we're going over the cliff. it's pretty clear to me they made a political calculation. the president's plan is just, quite frankly, a joke. >> i'm not sure about that, senator graham, but there will be plenty of time for jok
you guys are willing to go off the fiscal cliff? >> it republicans are not willing to let rates go back up, and we think they should go back to the clinton levels, a the a time when the american economy was doing exceptionally well, then there will not be an agreement. >> while geithner was drawing a line in the sand, house speaker john boehner was busy trying to lift his jaw off the flar after geithner presented the president's debt reduction plans to him last week. >> i was...
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if there's a deal on the fiscal cliff, if there's going to be a deal before january 1st, there will be rate increases of some sort. boehner can't be the guy to lead republicans to that, because they don't trust him and looking for sign of a sellout. what he needs to do here, this goes to the end of the month because boehner has to wait and put up the fight and make it look like he's putting up the filt. other conservatives say it's time to go. >> who would that be? >> people on talk radio and fox news and "wall street journal." >> who in washington would lead that? >> i think the tea partiers in the house are responsive to that information network. that's what happened with -- here's the key. last year the payroll tax was coming up for expiration at end of last year. obama said i wanted it extended for 2012. republicans at first said no, and boehner had to say no with them. when the deadline came last christmas, around last christmas republicans started to panic but polls showed people would blame them. all of a sudden those voices said let's not have this fight now. >> he's banking on
if there's a deal on the fiscal cliff, if there's going to be a deal before january 1st, there will be rate increases of some sort. boehner can't be the guy to lead republicans to that, because they don't trust him and looking for sign of a sellout. what he needs to do here, this goes to the end of the month because boehner has to wait and put up the fight and make it look like he's putting up the filt. other conservatives say it's time to go. >> who would that be? >> people on talk...
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he said he would rather go over the fiscal cliff than not to raise tax rates. so obama pushing higher taxes on the top 2%, not for economic reasons but for i'd logical reasons but there is also this obvious fact. obama wants to raise the top rates for political reasons. now that is he wants to force republicans to raise tacks in order to trigger a civil war within the gop and the conservative movement, and in that respect sadly obama is having some success. now so long as this debate is focused not on cutting spending but on raising daxs and revenues with the only question being which taxes, how much revenue, then obama wins. now if obama succeeds in making the argument not about his spending, but about grover norquist, he wins there, too. for republicans, on the other hand, if they can figure out a way to refocus the debate on spending, they win and the country wins. we can't kid ourselves that's correct is not easy to do. obama has the biggest microphone in the land and he also has the media in his hip pocket. all the gop has is control of the house. now it's
he said he would rather go over the fiscal cliff than not to raise tax rates. so obama pushing higher taxes on the top 2%, not for economic reasons but for i'd logical reasons but there is also this obvious fact. obama wants to raise the top rates for political reasons. now that is he wants to force republicans to raise tacks in order to trigger a civil war within the gop and the conservative movement, and in that respect sadly obama is having some success. now so long as this debate is focused...
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let me play it. >> if there is no agreement, then the fiscal cliff has to be dealt with. i didn't see it if they decent this, we do that. i saw it as a statement of fact. it's not a threat. it's a prediction. if there's no agreement, we go over the cliff. let's hope we can have an agreement. >> what do you make of the way she put it? it's not a threat. she said, listen, these are the facts. >> nice little economy you have there. nice little economy you have there. it would be a shame it if anything happened to it. that's not a threat. look, we have to start looking at what happens if we do, in fact, go over the so-called cliff, and what happens is, you know, one thing is we take a huge bite out of the deficit. we do it in a crude may, and there would be immediate attempts to fix it and fine-tune it and take some back. some would probably get through. if you actually want to look at it from a policy standpoint, it may not be the worst possible option to just go over the cliff and then put back in the tax cuts and the spending increases or renewals that you'd like to put ba
let me play it. >> if there is no agreement, then the fiscal cliff has to be dealt with. i didn't see it if they decent this, we do that. i saw it as a statement of fact. it's not a threat. it's a prediction. if there's no agreement, we go over the cliff. let's hope we can have an agreement. >> what do you make of the way she put it? it's not a threat. she said, listen, these are the facts. >> nice little economy you have there. nice little economy you have there. it would be...
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the biggest issue that's causing the fiscal cliff is the tax rates going up on the middle class. especially in this time now when we're getting out of this recession. we're seeing some robust growth. we want the christmas sales to be good. if the middle class knew that they're going to keep their tax cut, it would put a smile on everybody's face. and both parties can take credit for it. why won't they do it? there's only one answer. they're obsessed with protecting billionaires and millionaires. it's a sad state of affairs. >> one thing that we've seen in the days leading up, at least through this week, that there has been optimism from both sides expressed by speaker boehner, also by the president, and also republican tom cole, congre congressman, seem to be on board. now we have conservatives like charles krauthammer putting out their pieces saying let's go over the fiscal cliff, let the president do this. then john cornyn, republican from texas, saying apparently the president wants us to go over the fiscal cliff. this is serious business, demanding higher taxes, more stimulus
the biggest issue that's causing the fiscal cliff is the tax rates going up on the middle class. especially in this time now when we're getting out of this recession. we're seeing some robust growth. we want the christmas sales to be good. if the middle class knew that they're going to keep their tax cut, it would put a smile on everybody's face. and both parties can take credit for it. why won't they do it? there's only one answer. they're obsessed with protecting billionaires and...
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cliff than not to have a rise in tax rates, and he said, quooe, "no deal is better than a bad deal," and a bad deal for him is not letting tax rates go up. what do you think of that? he's one of your own. >> well, unfortunately, we've got too much partisanship in washington, d.c.. the american people want the leaders, both the president and the congress to come together, make the tough decisions. it's going to take both. it's going to take the revenue, but it's also going to take fundamental reform of spending. you cannot spend a billion dollars more than you take in every year or there's fiscal ruin, and with the amount of baby boomers retiring over the next several years, they are going to have to deal with things like medicare, medicaid, and social security if we're going to resolve this thing for the long term, and, frankly, iowa farmers and small businesses will be hit with huge increases in capital gains and death taxes, a real damaging blow to our state, which is doing well. liz: let's talk about the double whammy you face, and you're only one of six states where it's an inter
cliff than not to have a rise in tax rates, and he said, quooe, "no deal is better than a bad deal," and a bad deal for him is not letting tax rates go up. what do you think of that? he's one of your own. >> well, unfortunately, we've got too much partisanship in washington, d.c.. the american people want the leaders, both the president and the congress to come together, make the tough decisions. it's going to take both. it's going to take the revenue, but it's also going to...
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. >>> fiscal cliff, the thing we are trying to avoid, had $1.2 trillion in cuts but half are to defense. this has $1.2 trillion in cuts but they're just saying make the whole thing cuts to entitlements in domestic spending and not cut defense at all? trying to entice the democrats saying, i don't want you to fall off this cliff so why don't you voluntarily jump off this steeper cliff but don't worry, your fall will be cushioned by lava. >> that is jon stewart's take on the gop's fiscal cliff offer. he's right. we are better off stumbling down the slope like drunken fools than the republican offer out there. here to explain that and why a huge part of the talks making major changes to medicare may be totally unnecessary is jonathan cohn and joins us now. jon, i think that's a good place to start is this. itç seems like all of the discussions about medicare, in relation to the fiscal cliff or in general seems to have an ajumpgs a assumption it's a big program and in dire need for cutting and reform but there's a basic myth at work there of the efficiency of medicare. >> yeah. medicare i
. >>> fiscal cliff, the thing we are trying to avoid, had $1.2 trillion in cuts but half are to defense. this has $1.2 trillion in cuts but they're just saying make the whole thing cuts to entitlements in domestic spending and not cut defense at all? trying to entice the democrats saying, i don't want you to fall off this cliff so why don't you voluntarily jump off this steeper cliff but don't worry, your fall will be cushioned by lava. >> that is jon stewart's take on the gop's...
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that is the fiscal cliff. we shouldn't be dealing with other issues that are long term in order to avert the cliff as it were. that is immediate crisis. we have long term situation --. bill: but you know when lawmakers get a little bit of rope, you know, when they get time to think about it and push it off to the next year, it never gets done. this budget proposal, there are many who wonder whether or not even democrats could support it. the last budget that came from the white house went to the senate, it went 98-0 against it. no one voted for it. melissa: well, that was kind of a tricky parliamentary issue as well but, i do take issue with one thing, the idea we haven't dealt with entightments. we had two years, a year and a half we debated medicare. we made significant changes in medicare. we just had a campaign which republicans including governor romney time after time after time charged that we had cut $616 billion in spending out of medicare and we reformed the program. we have looking toward new ways t
that is the fiscal cliff. we shouldn't be dealing with other issues that are long term in order to avert the cliff as it were. that is immediate crisis. we have long term situation --. bill: but you know when lawmakers get a little bit of rope, you know, when they get time to think about it and push it off to the next year, it never gets done. this budget proposal, there are many who wonder whether or not even democrats could support it. the last budget that came from the white house went to...
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i am concerned not only about the farming cliff, but the overall fiscal cliff. we need america to come together. we need to create more jobs in america like we have done here in nebraska, as you know. we have 3.8% unemployment rate here in nebraska. i want you to know that i have talk to our farmers and ranchers. they are prepared to take their fair share of budget reductions if it will put america a better economic shape. liz: i know. i know. do you think it will happen? it does not look overall at the moment, governor. >> it does not. the president needs to lead just like the governor's lead in their states. they ought to stay together as long as it takes to develop a framework for a real positive solution to move forward regarding the fiscal challenges we face. the two of them need to sit down, get it worked out and put america first. liz: you governors and what we have learned from delaware and rhode island and pennsylvania and utah, all of you have been so kind to come on the show, is that you cannot wait to have this very delicate ballet dance that they se
i am concerned not only about the farming cliff, but the overall fiscal cliff. we need america to come together. we need to create more jobs in america like we have done here in nebraska, as you know. we have 3.8% unemployment rate here in nebraska. i want you to know that i have talk to our farmers and ranchers. they are prepared to take their fair share of budget reductions if it will put america a better economic shape. liz: i know. i know. do you think it will happen? it does not look...
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joining me now, theman some democrats blame for the fiscal cliff impasse, grover norquist, president of americans for tax reform. and the many ands a finger to about fixing it, michael reagan, founder of the reagan group. i wantto start with the republicans plan that they put on the table. they have been accused of doing nothing and all. they come up with their own plan which inclus 800 billion in revenue from closing loopholes and eliminating deductions and then 1 billion in spendin cuts. it is being rejected from the get go by democrats. grover, what do you say? >> i think the republicans had a very good pl called lorraine budg. they alloted for it in the house. itsaves $6 trillion over the same decade, and they did not raise taxes and all. i really think of the president is not iterested in compromising, and not sure it is wise with the republicans to keep moving in his direction. i suppos it ge you five minutes on the nightly news to say you are being reasonable, but the president keeps saying he jst wants massive tax increase no spendin cus. he wants to increase spending as part
joining me now, theman some democrats blame for the fiscal cliff impasse, grover norquist, president of americans for tax reform. and the many ands a finger to about fixing it, michael reagan, founder of the reagan group. i wantto start with the republicans plan that they put on the table. they have been accused of doing nothing and all. they come up with their own plan which inclus 800 billion in revenue from closing loopholes and eliminating deductions and then 1 billion in spendin cuts. it...
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we will see. >> ruth from tell. >> i am in agreement with the fiscal cliff, you are my hero. we. >> robert, e-mail, perfect solution, again you nailed it, neil. >> jay from arizona, to the super hero i am glad someone is coming to the aid of the country. if you want do be a super hero you may want to turn your tall ends to educate the people on economics of country. >> that is what i do as a mortal on this follow show and on fox business network each day, jay every day, without a super her overoutfit. >> and i often watch with my dad and i think you are funny but i wonder, was he an odd kid? you seem like you would have done some odd things? >> well, if you call always worrying about the planet trying to say that the odds, well, guilty. >> kathy from hotmail, i love you, not in a romantic we because you saw it as it is. why not run for budget? i was too busy being a super hero, leaving mere mortals to lead. >> from north carolina, thanks for chewing out congress, and i am thinking of watching "lincoln" rather than fixing the economic problems. any in the of harry reid getting
we will see. >> ruth from tell. >> i am in agreement with the fiscal cliff, you are my hero. we. >> robert, e-mail, perfect solution, again you nailed it, neil. >> jay from arizona, to the super hero i am glad someone is coming to the aid of the country. if you want do be a super hero you may want to turn your tall ends to educate the people on economics of country. >> that is what i do as a mortal on this follow show and on fox business network each day, jay every...
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it will fix the problem and the deficit problem as long as everything in the fiscal cliff happens. as long as sequestration happens it will hurt defense. tax rate goes up. eventually you will get someone out, to get that president out and get president who wants lower tax rates and congress that wants the lower tax rate and maybe a senate. it would hurt dramatically. best time to do it is now. >> andrea: there are two schools of thought here. one if you follow twitter or watch republicans who are on the pundit circle, they say let them go off cliff and let obama own that. there is another one that says just let him have what he wants and then when the economy nose dives he will have to own it. republicans are going to get blamed anyway. do you feel strong about either one of those? >> dana: not necessarily. i do think i see in "washington post," headline, obama offers plan for cliff. plan to be in quotes. the thing that amazes me and the media lets it happen. for eight years or longer now. i had to defend how many times people said on the left, including president obama when he was
it will fix the problem and the deficit problem as long as everything in the fiscal cliff happens. as long as sequestration happens it will hurt defense. tax rate goes up. eventually you will get someone out, to get that president out and get president who wants lower tax rates and congress that wants the lower tax rate and maybe a senate. it would hurt dramatically. best time to do it is now. >> andrea: there are two schools of thought here. one if you follow twitter or watch republicans...
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cliff, tax rates go up not just for the rich but for the middle class, for everyone, all those cuts in domestic spending and naths security spending, they go into effect. people aren't going to be happy about that, and the president will be able to say, look, i begged them, i repeatedly said 98% of the american public, they wouldn't get a tax increase if we just took them out of the equation, let's pass legislation extending the bush tax cuts for everyone earning under $250,000 a year. they didn't do it. so, you know, he'll have some leverage on that in terms of the politics because politically, you know, the polls all are very consistent. the election results are pretty consistent. the american public is ready for a modest increase in taxes for the upper 2% of taxpayers. having said that, there's another issue that's coming up in february or march and that's raising the debt ceiling once again. the republicans have a lot of leverage on that right now because the white house, the administration will desperately want to raise that debt ceiling so the u.s. doesn't go into default. tha
cliff, tax rates go up not just for the rich but for the middle class, for everyone, all those cuts in domestic spending and naths security spending, they go into effect. people aren't going to be happy about that, and the president will be able to say, look, i begged them, i repeatedly said 98% of the american public, they wouldn't get a tax increase if we just took them out of the equation, let's pass legislation extending the bush tax cuts for everyone earning under $250,000 a year. they...
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so until the republicans agree to those clinton-era rates, we are going to go off the fiscal cliff. >> you know, it's interesting, ari, you'll remember this because you were the white house press secretary in 2001 and 2003 when those bush-era tax rates were approved basically by republicans, very few democrats voted to approve those bush-era tax cuts. so why not do what the republican congressman from oklahoma says, what paul just said, go ahead, declare victory. say, look, all these democrats are now on board, they support for 98% of the american people the bush-era tax rates for a long time to come, declare victory and move on. >> well, number one, wolf, actually those tax cuts were bipartisan. 12 senators -- democratic senators voted for them, a good number. more than 60 senators voted for the bush tax cuts across the board. number two, let me surprise you with this, i don't agree by going over the fiscal cliff, but i do agree that the smart move for the americans to make they don't have leverage on the taxes. the payroll tax cut about to expire and it did expire, republicans tucke
so until the republicans agree to those clinton-era rates, we are going to go off the fiscal cliff. >> you know, it's interesting, ari, you'll remember this because you were the white house press secretary in 2001 and 2003 when those bush-era tax rates were approved basically by republicans, very few democrats voted to approve those bush-era tax cuts. so why not do what the republican congressman from oklahoma says, what paul just said, go ahead, declare victory. say, look, all these...
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raise tax rates on the top 2%. republicans say the tax hikes would only hurt job creation. but in arlington, virginia, vice president biden said today's jobs report shows the economy is turning a corner, so it's critical to get a deal. >> there is a sense... there is a sense that if we can reach an- - act like adults and reach an agreement here on the fiscal cliff, the upside is much higher even than the downside is if we don't. >> sreenivasan: biden said the president is willing to consider what he called any serious offer. aides for the two sides were expected to continue talking, through the weekend. wall street was mostly higher on the news from november's jobs report. the dow jones industrial average gained 81 points to close at 13,155. the nasdaq was hurt by another sell-off in apple stock, and fell 11 points to close at 2,978. for the week, the dow gained 1%. the nasdaq lost 1%. this was another tense day across egypt, as a political crisis deepened. tonight, thousands of protesters pushed past army and poli
raise tax rates on the top 2%. republicans say the tax hikes would only hurt job creation. but in arlington, virginia, vice president biden said today's jobs report shows the economy is turning a corner, so it's critical to get a deal. >> there is a sense... there is a sense that if we can reach an- - act like adults and reach an agreement here on the fiscal cliff, the upside is much higher even than the downside is if we don't. >> sreenivasan: biden said the president is willing to...
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the president is answering questions about the fiscal cliff. how does that work? >> well, it's kind of interesting, andrea. we know that the white house has adopted a campaign-style way to sell the need to raise tax rates and generate more revenue from the wealthy. this is kind of in keeping of -- they have a couple minute video sent to reporters. this is another way to try and drive conversation via social media and amp up pressure on lawmakers to get republicans to capitulate. this is kind of one part i would say of a multi-front effort to adapt some of the tactics that clearly work for president obama in the campaign imported over to policy. they tried this with health care, andrea, back in 2009. it didn't work all that well. let's see if this operation works better. >> the other big twitter aannouncement today wa was @pontifx. the pope is going to start tweeting as of september 12th. >> he already has more followers than you and i and has been on for one day. >> it's amazing how things happen. >> god. >> back to the white house, jay carney said during the brie
the president is answering questions about the fiscal cliff. how does that work? >> well, it's kind of interesting, andrea. we know that the white house has adopted a campaign-style way to sell the need to raise tax rates and generate more revenue from the wealthy. this is kind of in keeping of -- they have a couple minute video sent to reporters. this is another way to try and drive conversation via social media and amp up pressure on lawmakers to get republicans to capitulate. this is...
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in my view fooling around with the debt ceiling is worse than the fiscal cliff. so you're sort of trading one monster for another. i think it would be, again, absolutely nuts to go there. >> peter, what do you think? >> oh, i don't agree. i think that the fiscal cliff and it is a cliff, on january 1 withholding taxes go up to the tune of $400 billion. >> not necessarily. >> it would have a very negative effect on the economy. according to the legislation they would, jared. >> they would not. >> jared, you have to -- >> let me make a point. the treasury secretary can decide if he or she believes a deal sl imminent not to adjust withholding tables. very important. >> i'm talking about no deal and we go off the cliff. >> we go off and stay off. >> it's $400 billion. we have a lot of things to do with regard to our debt ceiling, and my feeling is no one really believes the united states of america is going to default on its debt even if it lapses. we're dealing with different things. one is real and substantive and the other is psychological. >> i really disagree. >>
in my view fooling around with the debt ceiling is worse than the fiscal cliff. so you're sort of trading one monster for another. i think it would be, again, absolutely nuts to go there. >> peter, what do you think? >> oh, i don't agree. i think that the fiscal cliff and it is a cliff, on january 1 withholding taxes go up to the tune of $400 billion. >> not necessarily. >> it would have a very negative effect on the economy. according to the legislation they would,...
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they're clearly neither shaken nor stirred by the fiscal cliff. joining us is congresswoman jan chakowski from illinois. >> good afternoon. >> can i thank you for remaining at work given the urgency of the situation. speaker boehner says raising tax rates on the top 2% is unacceptable without serious entitlement reform. and a few hours ago nancy pelosi wondered what exactly he had in mind. take a listen. >> what are we talking about here? what are we talking about when we say restructure entitlements? what does restructure mean? destroy, wither on the vine, voucherize, or does it mean let's work together to make these stronger? >> now, given that speaker boehner doesn't tell us anything, are you able to give us any specific examples of what democrats may be prepared to concede in terms of earned entitlements? >> well, i am not willing to say that we cut benefits at all because we can, in fact, make medicare more cost-effective and bring down health care costs without cutting benefits. we did that, and the republicans hit us over the head with it.
they're clearly neither shaken nor stirred by the fiscal cliff. joining us is congresswoman jan chakowski from illinois. >> good afternoon. >> can i thank you for remaining at work given the urgency of the situation. speaker boehner says raising tax rates on the top 2% is unacceptable without serious entitlement reform. and a few hours ago nancy pelosi wondered what exactly he had in mind. take a listen. >> what are we talking about here? what are we talking about when we say...
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cliff negotiations, deficit reduction. not hearing specifically about mortgage interest deduction but hearing about closing the loopholes. republicans say this is what's on the table from the white house. raising marginal tax rates on the very rich. extending both the social security payroll tax break and unemployment benefits for next year. the government wants to -- the white house wants to defer the sequester for a year and then launch this new multi-year stimulus package that would be at least $50 billion last year, infrastructure spending. also get this, a permanent increase in the debt limit, and they would take the debt ceiling approval away from congress. robert reich, do you have any problems with all of these things? >> well, most of them are steps in the right direction. i think that actually taking the debt ceiling approval away from congress sounds radical but it really isn't. that's a technicality. you don't want the debt ceiling ever to be negated. you are don't want congress to ever say no because that's th
cliff negotiations, deficit reduction. not hearing specifically about mortgage interest deduction but hearing about closing the loopholes. republicans say this is what's on the table from the white house. raising marginal tax rates on the very rich. extending both the social security payroll tax break and unemployment benefits for next year. the government wants to -- the white house wants to defer the sequester for a year and then launch this new multi-year stimulus package that would be at...
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. >> if republicans do not agree to that, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff? >> oh, absolutely. again we see there's no agreement that done involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest. remember it's only 2%. >> former senator alan simpson, co-founder of the fix the debt campaign, choice words and analysis for would-be cliff jumpers. >> when you have leaders of parties and people from the administration saying, i think it will be to the advantage of the democrats to go off the cliff, wealthy it will be advantage to the republicans to go off the cliff or the president to go off the cliff, that's like betting your country. there's stupidity involved in that. this is big-time stuff. >> surprising exactly no one, senator mitch mcconnell took to the senate floor yesterday to blast the administration strategy as a campaign maneuver. >> incredibly, many top democrats, including the president, seem perfectly happy, perfectly happy, to go off the cliff. >> but in a new quinnipiac poll out today, the american public gives the democrats the benefit of the
. >> if republicans do not agree to that, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff? >> oh, absolutely. again we see there's no agreement that done involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest. remember it's only 2%. >> former senator alan simpson, co-founder of the fix the debt campaign, choice words and analysis for would-be cliff jumpers. >> when you have leaders of parties and people from the administration saying, i think it will be...
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. >> with no breakthrough today, fiscal cliff negotiations, could this be a starting pot? "outfront" republican congressman james lankford of oklahoma, incoming chairman of the republican policy committee, the fifth ranking position in the house gop leadership. appreciate you're taking the time. what about this idea of racinin taxes on everyone? the math works much better. >> i heard your lead in when you said this is a new idea. actually, it's not a new idea, there are several democrats who have floated that for a while. the code word is we want to go back to the clinton tax rates and talk about the clinton economy that we had a much more vigorous economy and growth and we should go back to the clinton tax rates. what that really means is all tax rates on all americans go back up because the tax rates were brought down in 2001 and 2003. i don't support that. i don't think that's a great idea. it would slow down the economy. >> when you look at economist's evaluations, it would slouw dow the economy. it would. there's no question about it. but if the problem is that we hav
. >> with no breakthrough today, fiscal cliff negotiations, could this be a starting pot? "outfront" republican congressman james lankford of oklahoma, incoming chairman of the republican policy committee, the fifth ranking position in the house gop leadership. appreciate you're taking the time. what about this idea of racinin taxes on everyone? the math works much better. >> i heard your lead in when you said this is a new idea. actually, it's not a new idea, there are...